Speaker 1: 0:00

I think the privilege I've had is I've had the chance to mentor a lot of juniors and you know, work with incoming interns as well, and the one thing I always say to them is the great thing about the tech space is it's so fast moving. So there's going to be some assets you'll see us create which are very much focused on the positive, and then there may be things like roundtables or even speaking opportunities where you have that chance to delve into a bit more detail and really delve into what was the why, like what actually happened in this case and how did you solve for it? So, really, between advocacy and sales, it's really a symbiotic relationship. So sales help us to get those references. We leverage your trusted relationships to build our own trusted relationships, to then build those references which then you use.

Speaker 2: 0:47

Welcome to Growth Pulse, the B2B Sales Podcast. You might be a salesperson, you could lead a sales team, maybe run a business, or a battle tested entrepreneur. Then we built this podcast for you. Great salespeople are built, not born. We learn so much from the deals we win. I will learn even more from the deals we lose. In each episode, we bring you some of the world's leading salespeople, sales leaders and experts in sales tech to share their best lessons from both their wins and their losses.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Before we start, please check out the screen of your phone or laptop and, if you're watching on YouTube, make sure you've clicked subscribe and pressed that like button down below. If you're listening on Spotify or Apple, hit the plus sign to follow so we can let you know when we publish each new episode. If you liked the episode, drop us a comment with any questions about the show. We'd love to get to know our audience. Big businesses always feature world-class salespeople and the best salespeople are always learning, so let's jump in. Welcome back everybody to another episode of Growth Pulse, the B2B Sales Podcast. Simon mate, welcome back. Hope you've had a great week.

Speaker 3: 2:04

Good day, mate. I've had a great week and I'm really excited about today's episode, Mate absolutely, I did introduce myself, dan Bartels.

Speaker 2: 2:11

I'm one of your co-hosts, you're Simon, and we've got a great former colleague of our, mel Cripps. Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 1: 2:16

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 2:18

Mel, look, you and I obviously know each other well and you're working with Simon now. But look for everyone's benefit, you're an advocacy marketer. Give us a bit of background. You've got a huge wealth of experience in the space. How did you get into advocacy marketing and how did you get to today?

Speaker 1: 2:31

Yeah, so I literally fell into it. So I went my third year of uni and figured I needed to get through the experience and an internship and I was lucky enough to land at Salesforce, which was extremely lucky. I did an internship for nearly 18 months to two years while I finished my degree and then started full-time and so from there I really fell into the advocacy space, but also fell in love with the advocacy space. So, for anyone who has not across what advocacy is and what they do, it's all about sharing customer stories and really getting a chance to meet and know your advocates. And for me I'm an extrovert. So again, to talk to anyone is the best highlight of my day. I love it. I genuinely love people.

Speaker 2: 3:16

So, Mel, one of the things that I've experienced as a salesperson, thinking about customer references or how I use that, there's kind of two pieces, a two-part question I'll ask you right. One is I've used would you be a reference as a sales tool to get a deal signed right. So a customer wants a better deal, so hey, look, I'll do that as long as you become a reference. Great. So we've set up that invitation early on and I think everybody should do that when you're selling anything. So whether you want some free wontons at a local restaurant, hey, make sure you tell some people that we're a great restaurant.

Speaker 1: 3:50

Yes, yes.

Speaker 2: 3:51

Or on the other side of that equation, it's hey, I've got a customer partway through a sales cycle and now I think I need to use customer references or that advocacy story to get the deal closed. And my experience has always been as a sales leader that most salespeople don't know how to use a reference well, they don't know when to bring it into a sales cycle, they don't know the right time for how to introduce the reference, so many of them will just stick it up as a logo slide and use my logo. It's like price is right and I think all of those just fall flat so often. As a marketer, what's your experience of that?

Speaker 1: 4:38

Oh of presenting the story.

Speaker 3: 4:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:43

It's an interesting one because I've done, I've worked on really big, I could say, visual pieces which have landed really well. But I think in MaconTex you're talking about and if we're thinking about, how does a salesperson share that story? So, and we're thinking about that funnel as well so we find customer stories work best at the top of funnel. So really about brand awareness, how do you actually rope a customer in from the get go, get their attention, and we see that a lot with. Is bashers a common term? I feel like it's a common term. So, okay, great, I'm in marketing. So you know, when you look at things like bashers, I know that there was a lot of work done to try and include references in those to try and capture that attention. Hey, your peer is using X product or hey, they've seen this result. Usually we know numbers work best. So if we have some sort of metric that we can tie to, that advocate, that is always the strongest possible story. And I think as well we know that in the final decision making process, that's where references play an even bigger part. So, as you were kind of mentioning, it's that sort of middle to bottom of the funnel If I think about some of the stats behind it, because I love a good stat to drive things home. As I just said, metrics are key. I think it's 70 plus percent of all buyers will reference something like three different advocate pieces before they actually make a decision. So whether that's a case study or a film or potentially, it's impressed. So that's a really big number and I think it also drives why it's so important to have advocacy.

Speaker 1: 6:16

Now I think the second part of your question is also and also please correct me if I'm wrong Second part of your question is around that storytelling element. How do you actually get and have the sales team telling those stories in an effective way? From my experience, it's really about how can you create those memorable one-liners. Really, I don't think it needs to be too in-depth unless the person you're selling to request that and once more detail and maybe it gets to that P2P reference stage. So you actually set them up with that customer and have a call.

Speaker 1: 6:47

But I do think a real strong one-liner with a metric can go a really long way. That's just, I guess, delivered authentically in conversation. So if you're having that conversation, you go, hey, you could implement this product, but we've seen XYZ like we saw this customer do it. This is how they did it. We could do the same for you. I think that's a really strong message to drive home and really I don't think it matters what part of the funnel you use that at. You can always, if you learn one, two, three references that are relevant to your patch or relevant to a set of customers that you look after, and you can use them interchangeably. I think that would probably be the strongest way and I don't know if you agree with that, because you have the use of selling experience, but that would be my take.

Speaker 2: 7:32

Yeah, yeah, I think, simon, this is an interesting topic, like how do we use it? My experience of great use of any previous customer story isn't necessarily the stats. I can't always translate, because one company had 15% growth or save for headcount or something that you're going to have that Like. If I make that promise, it's really hard for me to know that you can do that as well. But what I've always used the customer story for is someone else that has a similar problem in a space to you, approaches a problem in a market or sells a product in the same area as you like. They're encountering these issues. This is how they went and solved it. Let's go and do the work to understand if we helped you in a similar way, would you get benefits from it that are worthwhile investing in? And maybe that's a bit of my style rather than something that people do on mass, because the numbers always like I just couldn't back the numbers up. What do you think about that?

Speaker 3: 8:48

Simon yeah, look, it's an interesting one. I actually think it depends on who you're talking to. So I think, as we all work through a sales cycle, we have a buying center and we have a number of influencers, we have a champion and then you've got the ultimate decision maker and, depending on what you're selling, it might be the CFO, the CIO, etc. Now it's actually okay to present numbers to a CFO, but you do it in such a way that this customer achieved this and here's what I learned out of how they got that achievement. Not that you're going to get the same number, but CFOs love numbers. And. But I also think, if you're talking to, if you're selling a product that has, let's say, an implementation like a CRM or an ERP, I think it's critically important the use case and the user story about how they deployed it, what they did, etc. And I think if you talk to whoever's going to be the application owner or the project manager, you get the influences talking about how they're going to deploy your solution and then that bubbles up to the decision maker. So you've got a lot of different people in your buying center and different kinds of user stories or references etc. Really affect different people. So I think, know your audience, know who the buying center is, and different people in that buying center are going to react slightly different to different types of references and use cases.

Speaker 3: 10:14

And I think you've also got to be really careful.

Speaker 3: 10:18

A lot of salespeople I know use the same reference over and over and over again and they assume that the reference is for the company. The reference is actually for the person that's listening and I think what you're trying to do is change their mind or give them the confidence that making a decision to buy from you is actually a safe one, and so it's also about risk mitigation as well. So I think you just got to be a bit careful. And I think the other piece is, as a salesperson, try to use different companies as references, don't use the same one. Because, mel, I'm sure you know from your perspective, reference fatigue is a real issue. Right, and if you've got a in our market, you know Telstra is always the vanguard of companies that I've sold to and where Telstra gets referenced every single time. And if I'm the poor person that's sitting in at Telstra and I get a call five times a week from the same seller about reference, I'm just going to lose interest and you actually burn that. That is a great reference site.

Speaker 1: 11:14

I would really agree with that as well, and I think a lot of what we do, at least from a marketing perspective, is about creating those assets. So what I would also say is, on that note of sort of reference, burnout to see what you can use asset wise to actually share that story with whoever you're selling to. So, whether that's a slide, whether that's a film, whether it's a web story, because in the long run and I'm talking selfishly here that really helps our ad oh, maybe less selfishly for our advocates selfishly it helps our advocates actually not get burnt out and be able to, you know, focus on their day to day jobs right, like they're doing us. You know, we provide them with that opportunity to become an advocate and I think at the end of the day, it's amazing that they do that. But we also don't want to take advantage of that.

Speaker 3: 11:59

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 2: 12:02

Hey, mel, I want to ask you about, suppose, the other side of this equation. So we're the, we're the, we're the just to the salesperson's land, right? How do I, how do I use this tool? When a customer advocate, like, tell me if I'm a, if I'm a customer, and someone comes to me either from the marketing team or sales team, or support or whoever, and says, hey, we'd love you to be a customer advocate, like, what is it entail?

Speaker 1: 12:25

Yeah. So it really depends on which organization is asking you, depends on how big or how small that opportunity might be. And I always do say it's an opportunity because I, as an advocate, I would look at it as a way of what can I get out of this? So some of the benefits that that's the wrong word, but some of the benefits I would talk to if I was talking with a potential advocate is really the first question to the customer is actually hey, what do you think you might get out of this? These are some of the things we see, and it can be anything from hey, you want to build your reputation in market. You want more experience speaking up on stage. Do you want to connect with peers? Do you? I don't know. Does your organization maybe need more skills for that particular product?

Speaker 1: 13:10

And so it's attracting people to come join your organization because they know you've got a great setup and it's being held up in lights by that customer. Is it you? The organization wants to see there's more innovative in that particular space, or have more of a thought leadership platform? We've seen a number and I've seen a number of different reasons why advocates join the program, why they want to join the program, I would say the most common is really around filling up that reputation and having that thought leadership aspect as well as, I would say, being highlighted as an innovator. But I've seen a range of them throughout my time, so definitely, I think there's a lot of reasons that people get involved and I think also some of them are highly personal as well.

Speaker 2: 13:54

Well, I'll share my story because I don't know if you're aware, but I wouldn't have a career in tech if it wasn't for customer. I can't even say it. I had them to see Right. My part of my journey started. I was a salesforce customer and it wasn't that. I was a salesforce customer. I was using a tech platform and I was asked by my accounting tech at the time would I be interested in doing a customer video? If you may know Andrew, every human has been on the podcast. He had me down at one of the early salesforce floors did a video. I was then one of the guys that ended up out of the video being stuck on the poster at what was then Cloudforce, which is a precursor to a world tour.

Speaker 2: 14:33

And out of the back of that, obviously, I made a whole bunch of connections with a bunch of people internally at salesforce and it was never my dream to be running that company long term. And I got some advice and said well, when you sell the business, make sure you have fired yourself and you don't work there anymore, otherwise you'll go with it and ended up hitting some people up for a job at salesforce. But at the time internally in our business, when I was off doing a bunch of different speaking events and videos etc. My sister who was working with us said look, are we getting paid for this? Like your time is valuable in the business? And I said listen, I don't know how we'll get paid, but we'll learn like this will be valuable to us.

Speaker 2: 15:10

And I think that's one of the things that's always resonated for me is that, whether it's in your individual career, whether it's brand exposure, whether it's connection to other customers or leaders, the time you spend being a customer advocate of a partner of yours or a supplier or a customer, it pays back. In spades it always pays back and it's hard to tell ahead of time what that payback will be. You know you may end up working there, you may end up working for their competitor, who knows but it will always pay back for you and for your organization in terms of a positive outcome. So I mean that's one of the pieces. As a person who's done it and built like literally it's been one of the launch pads of my career. I can't recommend like add client reference programs. I can't even say I can't recommend them highly enough.

Speaker 1: 16:04

And I would add to that as well, I've seen a multitude of customers get promoted through the work they've done, because they've also been able to share it at their own organizations, like hey, check out this organization. They're putting me up in lights, it's showcasing all of this great work myself and the team have done. And then they get promoted and it's a really awesome thing to see, especially because, if you get lucky, your advocate will work with you for many years, and that's really the dream state, and I've been lucky enough to have customers who have that, to see them be able to grow in their career at the same time that they're working with you. It's absolutely priceless.

Speaker 3: 16:38

Yeah, so yeah, absolutely so, Mel, you know it's. What's interesting is you've obviously had a long, great career with Salesforce. You recently moved to a new organization. You know different companies are different and they do things differently, but is the root of what you're trying to achieve now that you're at Veeam versus what you're at Salesforce? Is it fairly similar, is it radically different or what's what are you noticing as you've gone from, I guess, the CRM space to the data protection space? Is advocacy a similar thing, or is it very, very different?

Speaker 1: 17:07

It's an interesting one. I actually think it's at the root of it all. It's the same, it's you've got this, I think, especially being two really great companies, they've both got their communities which absolutely love the product, and I think that's really powerful in itself. But I would say, from an advocacy perspective so far bearing in mind I am quite new it's pretty much on the same page. So, yeah, definitely, I think at its root it's about getting those customers to be excited about your product, to share that excitement and to share it as far as we can share it.

Speaker 2: 17:39

I think it's one of those pieces that given I'm now playing in a completely different space in it and I'm not in, I mean, a customer of everyone's technology solutions now as a fintech customer references and advocacy is a big part of our market as well, but the bit that I see that businesses do it really well, they actually understand it's about trust, and it's really hard for someone to build trust one on one. Normally trust is built by sort of weight of numbers and whether you can spend a whole heap of time building a brand. But brand building in the B2B space is hard Because you're not targeting, knowing that everyone you know trying to be a household name. You know I don't even believe Benny off thought when he started Salesforce he'd have buildings in harbours with names on it. That wasn't on the horizon, and most companies when you start, it's not part of your marketing spend to put your name on the tip of everyone's tongue.

Speaker 2: 18:36

So so then when it hits you know, an approval board or a buy signature that who am I bought? Who's this company? What am I buying from? Are they real? Whereas what they're looking for is, who are people that look like me, that have already made this decision, have trusted outcomes. You know I can see that they're journey similar to mine. Some people lean on. I think all of that becomes critical and crucial in the space and when you get it, you understand it well. It becomes a launchpad for, you know, much bigger customer growth. In saying that, I was intrigued to ask some questions and I think we've all got some some, some, some pieces on this. What are some horror stories? What are some stories where we've seen people use references really poorly or burn out good references? Maybe we keep people's names out of, but I'm sure we've got some, some stories we can share when you just think what we, what we doing. Don't do it this way.

Speaker 3: 19:30

I think, based on those giggles, I think we're going to have a few.

Speaker 1: 19:35

You just got to remember. I'm quite like. I used to send the PR and comms team, so I'm very like.

Speaker 2: 19:41

Let's, let's, let's, let's tell some stories. Let's, let's, let's name it Shame. No, we shouldn't name it Shame. But what is some? Don't let's get some, don't do this.

Speaker 1: 19:55

I'm going to need a moment to think about this. That's OK.

Speaker 2: 19:58

I've got. I've got the ones that I see all the time is from a sales perspective, an account executive or a leader Often it's a senior person who doesn't know when to bring the reference in. I will just get them to talk to Jimmy. Jimmy is going to tell them just to buy it. And as a salesperson, you're thinking stop, exit, stage left, like no, we haven't even validated the fact that they actually have a problem or a need or any budget for the thing that we're trying to solve. And you're trying to jam someone's you know we've got to get the deal in this month of his quarter and if they just talked to Bob, bob will tell them to buy and you're like stop, they're the ones for me in terms of like those. But I've got his mobile number, I'll just get him to have a no exit. Like stop, they're the ones for me.

Speaker 2: 20:51

I think, as a salesperson, it's understanding when it like when to use it, and I've seen people use it so poorly. I mean, simon, what about you, mate? What do you reckon from some horror stories? I've seen some great ones.

Speaker 3: 21:03

I think. Look, first and foremost, when you're presenting a like, a success story, don't overcook the presentation of it. Share it with them, Don't stand up and throw it at them. So one of my horror stories I did have a boss once who we're at a client and this person wanted to come to the meeting. I wasn't sure it was appropriate with that, with my boss, so I said yes and this person actually I'm in a tiny little room of about four of us and they stand up and present the use case and it had been drilled into everybody in this organization that there was a certain flow to the way you deliver the use case and the flow to the story and software companies love their customer stories. But he presented it at them and it was awful.

Speaker 3: 21:53

And the problem was it was, I think, that this person was trying to establish their own credibility. They were trying to stand up and present, but it went down like a lead balloon, it's. So I think you, when you deliver a user story, it's if you do it at somebody, it's threatening and they're going. Well, this is all made up. I don't believe it. An answer this you want to do it gently and lead them into the store and engage them in the story and make sure that they empathize with the problem the other customer is solved, because if there's no linkage between the problems that is going well, this is a useless waste of my life.

Speaker 2: 22:29

So link it to them, talk, use their buzzwords as you're delivering and finessing the story, and I think that's that's a key one yeah, what I just heard you, what I just heard you say, then if I put another lens on that problem, is, just because A company that looks like you or a reference story solved a problem doesn't mean that this is relevant for me or that I can use it that way or that it will solve my problem. That's not a reason why I'm going to buy. I'm going to buy because I'm clear on what my problem is and I agree that that's my problem and I agree that your product, service or partnership will help me resolve whatever it is. We just, we just established Just because somebody else had that, you think, kind of looks like me.

Speaker 2: 23:16

They might mean my direct competitor, but I haven't the same problem as me. Or I've got more money or less money. My people got, you know, up or down maturity, like it's. They're not the same. And so just berating me with because competitor ex did this, therefore you should, why haven't you signed already? That doesn't work.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Yeah, and advocacy should just be complimentary in the decision making process, so you're using it to help build trust. Hey, we've done this well, but actually we're here to focus in on you and what your problem is.

Speaker 3: 23:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a trick, especially tricky one in public sector right, because finding government agencies or departments that are willing to Be a active participant, there's a lot of fear in there now. Have you, have you successfully got government departments to be advocates before?

Speaker 1: 24:04

Yeah, a couple, and I think it's again like we keep going back to trust and it is really all about Making sure that that advocate and that particular whether it's a state or federal government individual actually feels comfortable and their marketing team feels comfortable as well. So I think, for the government in particular, it's really important to lay out what exactly that opportunity is whether it's a case study or speaking opportunity and just being really clear on what the objectives are. So, generally, we've seen a bit of success with it and, yeah, it's actually been quite a lot easier. I think that maybe what they will think, but it is very. I mean, as you can imagine, there's some parts of the government that are more happy to share than others, just based on what their focus is. Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: 24:54

What's the best medium, particularly for government? Is it? Is it video? Is it written? Is it? Is it just having them as a listed entity? They can talk to someone. What would you recommend in that space in particular?

Speaker 1: 25:07

So when you say best, you mean easiest to work with.

Speaker 2: 25:10

well, hey, I don't know give me, give me the different, give me the different categories, I suppose like.

Speaker 1: 25:18

Because I would say, you tell me what's going to work best for your, for your sales cycle. But I think typically what I've seen is speaking is a lot easier to engage Government customers in particular for. So I think that's because there's a bit more control over what that talk track will be. You've often got that Q&A already decided and so they've got those talking points that mean that everything is quite structured, and so I think that's quite easy. The other one that's super easy is actually super easy. I said that that's terrible phrasing. The other one that is that we see a lot of government customers actually open to is case studies because again it's that it's that medium of control. So they get to review that asset, they get to approve that asset and nothing goes live without their approval. So again it I kept saying it, but it's about that trust aspect of just they're putting their brand in your hands and you just got to make sure that you're being really safe with it.

Speaker 2: 26:11

One question I've got around how you kind of approach this, because I've seen Lots of leaders inside businesses get, get cautious around being involved in these programs. I'm not quite sure that we're ready yet in order to be put our name behind selling your products, and my kind of viewpoint on that has always been and like to me, if this is the, had you think about it as well and had you approach it as a marketer. It's never about selling my product. It's just about we've you've already bought my stuff, we've already engaged, but it's about selling your story that you had a problem that we saw.

Speaker 2: 26:46

Yes, sure, I'm possibly going to get some benefits out of this in terms of that, that sort of sideline story, but this is about showing the innovation on the all, the, the growth that you're taking as an organization and actually promoting your brand, and I kind of get some sideline conversation. Is that how you think about it or is it? Is it the opposite ways? Is it really all about my brand as an advocate? Yeah, like which? Who gets the most benefit out of it?

Speaker 1: 27:17

It's, it's very 5050, depending on who you're working with. So I think it also depends as well. So a lot of tech companies have their communities as well. So I think that's also something to consider as part of the I would call it the extended advocacy realm is those communities. So really, depending on your individual, will depend on whether it's the organization or the person.

Speaker 1: 27:40

I mean, I mentioned before I'd seen a couple of the customers I've worked with get promoted. So that's obviously the individual, because they're able to share that work. And I think also it depends on the size of the customer. So if you're a small business, for instance, that maybe has a smaller marketing budget than, say, a huge enterprise, the advocacy program actually allows for free marketing right across, oftentimes, a larger organization, social channels or audiences and things like that, and so I think it really it's really a case by case basis and that's kind of what I was saying before in terms of different Benefits will affect different customers in a different way, just depending on where they are, I guess, in the size of business, the industries, what products they're using. But yeah, I think, I think that's really. You do see, some really cool I guess things come out of it, but it's very 5050, very 5050, and I know that's a little like Non-specific answer, but it's the reality.

Speaker 3: 28:47

That's great, that's good. There's benefit in it for a lot of people that interesting. So look, I think if I take another step, obviously we're talking To a lot of Australians in this audience and we're obviously you know we use case studies and references all over Asia, america, etc. One couple of things questions for you, I guess. First one is in Australia. You know I've sold the IP software, serum software, other software, but let's, let's take a IP for a minute. The decision maker, typically the CFO, is involved.

Speaker 3: 29:21

One of things I've noticed predominantly in Australia is a lot of the reference activity happens without the vendor involved. So let's say I'm selling to company a that's the info is looking at it is been three demos, he's excited, etc. He or she will typically pick up the phone and talk to the network. I won't come to the sales person. They want us marketing for a reference etc. And that tends to happen in smaller markets. I see happens elsewhere, but it's probably heightened here. I'm interested now do you ever have that in the back of your mind as you're building these customer advocates? You ever asked them? Do you get calls that are completely under the radar etc. Do you have a problem with that as a marketer. I'm keen on how you think about that.

Speaker 1: 30:13

I have one answer for a brother. If it's only have a problem with it as a marketer If there was a more negative connotation with your product because you have less control over what, is that word of mouth being shared, right? So if you're helping to organize that peer to peer reference, you never gonna give someone who is negative or maybe they're prone to saying things that maybe aren't the most positive and so I think from that perspective your main concern would be there is if your product doesn't back up what you say it does. I think if you have a strong product where generally you have a fairly happy community, most of your users, you got high nps scores, all of that jazz I would actually encourage it. I mean, what a mouth. Whether it's in tech, whether it's you know what's the newest restaurant down the street that you know you check with your mate. Is it good? It's gonna happen regardless. So I think it really comes back to.

Speaker 1: 31:10

Yeah, exactly like, embrace it and, if you need to, how do you make those people who are using your product even happier so that if, if you're safe is calling up his other CFO mates, you want them to say positive things. So how do you get them to say positive things?

Speaker 2: 31:25

I want to share this story with yourself as a marketer, but also my experiences sales person. Right, I think I know this the story, so I'm not going to tell you. But One of the most important lessons that I learned is actually don't be scared of the negative reference, I think. I think we all hunt down and we get cautious about all that. That customer deployment is not perfect yet.

Speaker 2: 31:52

So when you give a customer reference right at the beginning, like you just signed the contract yesterday and you're still in pre deployment, the customer reference isn't then about it's a successful deployment, it's about hey, we went through this process, we picked these guys because of these things. It's gone. It's gone poorly or well, or this is our experience so far. So if you jump in be aware of those things, that's the first piece. But I learned this lesson. Great guy called Tony, if you listen, is awesome. I want to give you a certain amount to. It's just name and shame. But the lesson he taught me was he thought and for all those listening, apologies, and this is what he thought all of our references with BS, until he got the one reference, said hey, be careful of these things.

Speaker 2: 32:47

And he's there was, because, of course, you guys are sales people, everything's rosy, everything works. And he says, particularly when you're buying enterprise solutions, or be the best solutions. Your example of a restaurant sometimes you burn the state, like sometimes and we know that my issue isn't the fact you burnt the stake, it's what do you do next and how do they react to when it went wrong? Because until I can find that time when, hey, in the deployment something's gonna go wrong, of course it is like you know think about your own, your own experience Moving house, the removals will tell you what's amazing. Until you make my food pack in the box is at three in the morning, going what am I doing this for? Right Box breaks. You can, I was fast, but you know it's gonna happen, something's gonna go wrong. How do you solve it next? And how does the, how does the organization react?

Speaker 2: 33:46

To me, that was the most important lesson that I learned about references. It's not just about the rosy reference, it's about the, it's about the negative as well. And then I suppose, even if you think about Like Google reviews or like the best reviews are not where you get there and they are all five stars and yet rubbish. Tell me, I always click in the one that says one star. What was it On your particular delivery got when missing? Hold on, they've got 10 million deliveries. That's gonna happen. Okay, there's five people that said it went when missing five out of 10 million. I'll play those odds right, like I think. I think that's the piece that we yourself, will get concerned about and, at the end of the day, if you're not wanna stand by the times that someone gives you, gives feedback about you when you're not in the room, there's probably something else you gotta look at in your business, right?

Speaker 3: 34:38

yeah, I was gonna say what's really interesting is, you know, I've had and look at the implementations and maybe say I am as well and notorious. You're quite right down. That is absolutely spot on there, never A hundred percent perfect. I think what's really interesting is when I'm, when I'm talking to a, a CFO, and they've agreed to be a reference for me for another CFO, one of the things I say to them every single time is yes, tell them how great my product is, tell them, yeah, the rosy stuff. But can you please keep it real? And the last thing I the most and you say negative, negative comments. I sort of flip that a little bit Keep the, keep the commentary real. So what really happened? What lessons would you do differently?

Speaker 3: 35:22

Because we all know very rarely is deployment about the capability of the software. It's the people behind the keyboard that don't get it right, whether that's the vendor, the partner, the customer. All of these people are trying to do the right thing. Things do go wrong and quite often you have a project manager, a CFO or a CIO that can give a pearl of wisdom to a potential prospect to say, hey, this is kind of where I went off the rails. I wouldn't do it that way again. But the net net at the end is it's good software, but it probably took us too long. Don't do that, and that is, in my view, the perfect reference.

Speaker 2: 36:02

Yeah, yeah. I totally agree with that as well yeah, I think it works, whether it's, whether it's software services. Anything like this is always two parties. And how do they, how do you get the best outcome from from that experience, that investment of time and effort, etc. That's what you know. Reference.

Speaker 1: 36:30

Yeah, I think that's what you said.

Speaker 1: 36:31

It's about having that authentic voice, and I mean, I was watching a few of your other podcasts and I realize that came through a lot.

Speaker 1: 36:36

Right, that's a theme, especially if you yourselves as sellers right, a big part of selling is being authentic.

Speaker 1: 36:41

In that it's being generally curious which I also heard was another word that was used a lot and I think I think it applies here as well and so Making sure those references are authentic they're not always, we know they're not gonna be sunshine and rainbows, it's just not practical, it's not life, that's not how things go, and so I think, as real as you can make that story and I say positive, not as in sunshine and rainbows, I say positive as in hey, we've worked through XYZ problem and I think it's also understanding the best forms to tell those really truthful and authentic stories as well.

Speaker 1: 37:12

So there's gonna be some assets you'll see us create which are very much focused on the positive, and then there may be things like Round tables or even speaking opportunities, when you have that chance to delve into a bit more detail and really delve into what was the why, like what actually happened in this case and how did you solve for it. So it's also thinking about what are the different ways you can show that customer story and how can you show that authenticity through those different assets.

Speaker 2: 37:40

Yep spot on so I've got a. I've got an advocacy story I want to get from from you now. So, as someone someone who stepped out of university straight into the tech world and landed in probably La La land of type of companies being sales force what reference would you give to people looking at that similar journey around how I want to get into sales or marketing and Text and exciting space. Look, has been an interesting couple of years in tech. Right, it's definitely changes to what it was five years ago well longer for Simon and I, like what. What's the reference you give about people, not the story joining sales force, but like joining, stepping into the tech world, like what? What reference would you give them?

Speaker 1: 38:25

Oh, okay, for me I think it was the right move. So that would be my overall reference. I think the the privilege I've had is I've had the chance to mentor a lot of juniors and, you know, work with incoming interns as well, and the one thing I always say to them is the great thing about the tech space is it's so fast-moving. Things are always changing. You know there's always the next revolution, whatever that's going to be, and so it's really exciting.

Speaker 1: 38:54

I Think there's also a lot of different areas you can get into that you just don't know exists.

Speaker 1: 39:00

You're going through university and you might do a marketing course, or you do a business admin course, or you do a business writing course, you know whatever those courses look like, but no one actually delves into.

Speaker 1: 39:09

Hey, here are the different job types, because it's just obviously it can't get that specific, and so I think the one thing I do share is like, hey, there's so much opportunity if you're creative, if you're more operationally minded, if you're more into the numbers, if you want to be customer-facing, if you absolutely don't want to be customer-facing, you know, I think for me, I the tech will kind of offers all of that and I think the interesting thing, and I will add as a female, is it's not something I actually thought I'd end up in. It wasn't anywhere. I thought I'd be heading and literally it's just because I don't feel like it was aimed at me, at least in my lifetime, while I was going through school. So Is I think it was a really cool space to end up in and I couldn't be more grateful. But hopefully that's a. That's a that's a great review.

Speaker 2: 39:56

I Think that kind of covers off. You know that we always ask a bit of advice at the end of the end of the podcast. I mean, it's some, that's some phenomenal advice, and one thing I was I think I think you're part of that piece of. I do feel Sorry, though, for people like yourself who stepped into the first role in some of these big American tech firms. The rest of the business world doesn't always look like that.

Speaker 1: 40:16

I was reminded of that a lot by all of my colleagues around me, so it was definitely a very yeah, I'd have to say I was like, well, this brings next. Every day.

Speaker 2: 40:30

Unless until you've worked in a place where basically what you get is, you know, instant coffee and a couple of a couple of biscuits in a packet on the side. That's when, that's when you know you're really building from the ground up. I'm not saying that we're all. That's where I'm in now. When you've had that experience, you kind of you kind of get both sides of the equation definitely.

Speaker 1: 40:47

There's just one last thing I'd love to do. Just as an advocacy marketer, I feel like I'd be doing the advocacy marketer's wrong if I didn't add this. So really, between advocacy and sales, it's really a symbiotic relationship. So sales, help us to get those references. We leverage your trusted relationships to build our own trusted relationships to them, build those references which then you use. So I would just say to all the sales people out there if your advocacy marketer is reaching out to you or trying to work ready to get customer on board, you know the time of day, so help us get them on board. It's all about we're trying to help you, but help us to help you.

Speaker 2: 41:20

So yeah, well said. Yeah, look, Mel, I can't reinforce that highly enough, right? So anyone who is in sales, whether it's sales leader, you run it, you're a CEO. If you're having that conversation with your customers on almost a daily basis when you meet them, you're actually doing yourself disservice. I mean this every time you build an advocate, it's about investment in the next month, quarter year. It's investment back in that customer.

Speaker 2: 41:45

If you want to have a in software in particular, you'll talk about retention rates. You want to retain a customer, make them an advocate. You, you want to. You want to grow an industry sector. Find five advocates. You know, if you want to grow your territory, don't wait for someone to bring you an advocate. Go and build five yourself. Like, if you've got that built into your organization and your sales motion, you will, you'll, you'll already be halfway through next year's number. Yeah, it's so important for sure.

Speaker 2: 42:15

Well, in saying that, mel, thank you so much for joining Simon. I didn't I forgot to ask at the top of the podcast how your weeks been, but I know, I've heard, I've had a couple of phone calls about stuff you've been doing, mate. So I know you, I know you've been busy traveling around, so thanks for coming on again for everybody. Thank you so much for joining growth pulse a bit of B south podcast. Do us a huge favor if you click like and subscribe down below Listening to us on either Apple or Spotify. Press the plus button so you'll know when we have the next next episode coming up. We've got some very cool guests coming up shortly, so do make sure you subscribe and get notification about Mel. Thanks so much, simon. Thanks Thanks, mel. Thank you.